Talk:Meditation

im ending this discussion with some easy to read facts.

meditation costs 1430 total ap

it gives 28.2 ap per day without any int added on

that means IF you invest you max it out it will take 50.71 day to PAY YOU BACK that 1430 ap you spent

now dont get me wrong those guys were right. it will take over a year for it to max itself out BUT that is only if you invest only the ap gained from it into it. if you focus your ap into it the skill becomes very useful very fast

sincerely, HappySideOfFear777

Ok, I made a bit of a mess updating the meditation AP interval formula image. The change made to the formula is that the time reduction per INT is 3/20, not 1/7. I tried to update a previous image but for some reason the file I uploaded didn't upload properly. Instead it made a distorted version of the previous version of the image. I had to upload it with a new tag to get into to update properly. See File:Meditation_AP_interval.png, File:Meditation_interval.png, and File:Meditation_AP_interval_fixed.png. If someone knows how to clean up the mess, that would be awesome. -- MageLunelle talk 14:12, 8 June 2011 (PST)

Do not just paste the talk page onto the Meditation page, very unprofessional looking. -- Bumble talk 21:19, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Here is the math for meditation skill

cost per level: e 120 d 230 c 295 b 360 a 425 or a total of 1430

F rank is -90 seconds so 58.5 minutes

A rank is -540 seconds so 51 minutes

So now lets find out how much would A rank meditation skill have to gain AP before it breaks even with someone who has Mediation rank F. In other words, how many days a person with rank A would have to wait till the character is able to cover up all the AP spent on ranking it to A+ any additional AP that a character wouldve gained if he were to leave the skill at rank F ( Another word for this is opportunity cost). So let's get down to the Math

Let's logically think this through and then formulate the mathematical equation

we have to find the number of minutes or days till Rank A meditation skill breaks even with a Rank F meditation skill.

Rank A AP gained * minutes = 1430 AP + (Rank F AP gained * minutes) This equation will calculate the number of minutes it takes for Rank A skill to cover up its lost 1430 skill to get to Rank A from F + opportunity cost

Let number of minutes = X therefore,

(1Ap/51min *x) = 1430 AP + [(1AP/58.5mins)*min] now solve for x by bringing both x's to one side and solve for it.

0.017094017094017094017094017094017x + 1430 = 0.01960784313725490196078431372549x

1430 =0.01960784313725490196078431372549x - 0.017094017094017094017094017094017x 1430 = 0.0025138260432378079436902966314731x

568854 = X = The number of minutes before rank A meditation pays for itself.

It's 9480.9 hours or 395.0375 days

--

I'm sorry but all that math stuff is overly complicated and it is totally unnecessary. It's basic math that is needed to calculate the time it takes to get the AP back by time. SO I fixed it to the way that it should be. -- Im sorry you didn't. Rank F is free while Rank A isn't. In F you gain about 24 ap/day and A is about 27. You have to use the 3 to calculate how long it will take you to recover the 1430. -- You have to use the 3 what? Could you put yours back up. I saved yours but I didn't save the bottom part. That way we can both have them up in case people want to know both. -- Ok look I'll use a simple example. I have a program which makes me $24 a day. Now I have a choice of spending $1430 to improve that program to make $27 a day.

Now if I choose to accept it I will be making $3 more a day. From my new program it will take me about 2 months to make $1430. But from my old program I could have made $1230. Thus I only made $200 more in 2 months from upgrading. It would take me about a year to make $1430 extra compared to what I would have made from not upgrading it.

Come On Guys
Simple Math here. Two mathematical equations. One being with Rank F meditation (0 AP cost, +24 AP Every Day), and one being with Rank A Meditation (1430 AP cost, +27 AP Every Day). This is a simple case of Slope/Point of Intersection. Using the base mathematical equation y=ax+b, the two equations will be:
 * y=24x
 * y=27x-1430
 * y is the total AP Gained
 * a is the slope/rate of increase of the AP gain
 * x is the amount of time passed in days
 * b is the base starting point, in this case, rank F has a 0 AP requirement, whereas rank A has a 1430 AP requirement
 * This is a negative number because you are "down" 1430 AP.

Now, all you have to do is find the point of intersection for those two curves, which is very easily done. Substitue the first equation into the second equation and solve: 24x = 27x - 1430 3x = 1430 x = 476.6 repeated By mathematical calculation, we can see that it takes rougly 476 (Rounded down due to significant digits) Days for both to reach the same AP gain. That is Exactly 1 year, 3 months, and 21 days if you were to start on January 1st, 1 less day if you were to start on a leap year. This means that every hour after 476 days will be more rewarding if you have a higher rank Meditation. --ZephyreTALK 06:08, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

To prove this, I found a cool graph maker on the web.

--ZephyreTALK 06:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Forgot to add: With consent from more people, I would like to add this to the main page and remove the previous content.--ZephyreTALK 06:49, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * If you add it, at least do the math exactly first. 24x and 27x are eyeballed, there. Using the cooldowns on the skill page, rF is 24.72 AP a day, rA is 28.37 AP a day. However, the values on the skillpage seem slightly strange, too, they seem to assume a base INT of 105? --MinaTepes 23:18, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Simple Math
The equations wont be that much different, but at Rank A Meditation, one acquires 28.24 AP per day (1440 minutes per day / 51 minutes per AP). Using the 28.24 and 24.62 values for Rank A and Rank F respectively, we sill come to 395 days until we get the 1430 back. However, for people who just want to know how long to make that 1430 back without regard to the expenditure or comparison with Rank F, it is 50.64 days. That is, you make 1430 AP more every 50 days with Meditation Rank A than you do without Meditation at all.

The "same ap gain" graph that Zephyre posted is a little more off, because he is using the 27AP/day value which is not correct. Using his math with the 28AP/day value we come up to 357.5 days - 3 months better than his result.

Current potential inteligence effect
--Cma 00:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC)Cma

I've been working on how much time inteligence can potentially take away currently. If I counted correctly all the current(plus the ones people cheated and got from the 3rd boat) titles put together that give inteligence give 140 inteligence or 20 seconds off (I'll double check the titles later) Currently their is an additional 163 points to be gained from inteligence mastery, taking off 23 additonal seconds for a total of 43 less seconds. (Note to self their are 2 inteligence points unused so far...)

Now for equips

2 Malachite Rings give 50 total (25 each), while the level 20 hero belt give 10 int, Lann and Fiona both get 8 int from their red metal swords,the highest set int boost, currently goes to the Broken Ash Set (172), which I believe techniacally isn't out yet, It is followed by the spider cloth mail set (125)(I believe these include the items own bonuses) If I'm not mistaken that means their is 240 int from equipment

240+140+163=543 543/7=77 with a bunch left over 539/7= 77 on the dot so now their are 4 extra. You can lower the time by 77 aditional seconds through titles equipment ect (can someone provide me the base inteligence?) This means someone with rank A meditation and all the items that I mentioned earlier and all the titles that give int, they can cut down their meditation time from 50 minutes and 45 seconds to 49 minutes and 28 seconds

I've been told every 7 INT is -1 seconds, I'll test it out when I reroll Evie. -- Bumble talk 01:51, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there a point to using the int from a hero belt in any calculation considering it only lasts a week (unless this changes on higher level hero belts)?

--Cma 00:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC)Cma

Bumble, how do you do the thing with the red name..... Anyways while yeah their isnt that much of a point to the belt as it it only adds 10 int (1 second difference) and its temporary, I'm measuring potential, it doesn't matter if its only a temporary benifit. (By the way I doubt their will be any more hero belts... I think it was an ealry access event thing) Also its definltey every 7 int lowers the time by 1 second, it cleary says that in both the stat page of the wiki, and in game.

Current Meditation Potential
With rank A inteligence mastsery, all the inteligence providing titles, 2 Malachite rings, a red metal sword, a level 20 heroes belt and a (soon to be released) broken ash set, a player can have 543 inteligence through bonuses, this reduces meditation time by 77 seconds, making the curent lowest possible meditation time 49 minutes and 28 seconds. Despite the additional 543 inteligence, the amount of AP gained daily is only increased by 1. (Information taken from vindictuswiki, math was not done by the wiki)
 * --Content moved from main page to here. --ZephyreTALK 03:07, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

--Cma 20:39, 24 October 2010 (UTC) Ummm why was my content moved..... Decided that I'm going to try to figure out the new current potential now.....

Ok, I've decided I won't use temporary items like the hero belt in my calculation this time

Inteligence Mastery 163 + Titles 217 + (2) Vampire Knight Seals 52 (Correct me if their is something that gives more int) + Broken Ash Set 172 (Still the best int armor set) + Blood Lancer 24 (Lann Spear type)or Vampire Blade 16 (Fiona Sword Type)

628 for Lann or 620 for Fiona is the current maximum inteligence Anyway Lann takes away 89 seconds....

if you add in a level 20 heroes belt he can take off 91, same amount for Lann with a level 30 one as well

49 minutes 16 seconds is the current lowest time possible for Lann's without a heroes belt.... thats 12 seconds less

I've noticed some titles are posted twice, under slightly diferent names.... Example, Command Interceptor and Interceptor this may make my count slightly higher than what it should be Unless I'm mistaknen titles give 217

Doesn't look to be worth it for most players
Unless a player is in it for the long haul (over 1 year), shoving points into Meditation seems wasteful. Very wasteful. The difference between a high-intelligence rank A and a normal-intelligence rank F is too minuscule for my purposes.

Thank you for explaining it so well, everyone above! When I did the calculation shown on the main page, I was shocked to discover that it would take about a year to break even. Naturally I figured I'd calculated it completely wrong, so I'm glad this page is here. Unless I get a lot more invested in this game, I have better uses for 230+ AP than increasing the rank of this skill (though I'm thankful for the ~24 AP/day it gives me out of the box, which is really helpful especially at the level at which it is given).

I already sank 120 AP into this, but thankfully didn't go further before checking. Please put a simple analysis of the break-even point on the main page's table so other people can easily decide for themselves without breaking out a spreadsheet. ;) I could add to the table if no one else wants to, but I want to make sure I get the correct data in there so I will want to re-read the discussion and make sure I get it right.

Thanks!

Wazat 17:49, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

More number crunching
All the discussion seems to be focused on Rank F vs. Rank A - which got me to wonder what the differentials were between other levels. Here's what I came up with:

Basic equation (based on Bumble's post) - to determine the minutes (x) it would take to recover the opportunity cost:

(1AP/[minutes at the higher rank]*x) = [AP cost to reach the higher rank] + (1AP/[minutes at the lower rank]*x)

or, put another way:

(AP / (1/t2 - 1/t1)) / 1440 = d

Where:

t1 = the time it takes to gain 1 AP at the lower rank;

t2 = the time it takes to gain 1 AP at the higher rank;

AP = the total AP cost to go from the lower rank to the higher rank; and

d = the number of days it will take to recoup the AP opportunity cost

Here are the results I came up with:

So, you can draw your own conclusions, but it seems that each advance in rank becomes increasingly expensive when compared with the previous rank. You can say that it takes 13 months for you to recoup your AP costs from leveling to rank A... but another way to look at it is that *once you're already at rank B* it is going to take you most of two years (from that point) to recover the AP points you're about to spend to bring you all the way to rank A.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you are capped at 100 AP - and the times posted above assume that you don't waste any of them. In other words, if you aren't logging in to each character approximately every four days, you will be AP capped anyway and thus the time it takes to make up the difference will be that much longer.

Well you guys can possibly do something different like. What if you go to the skill in this wiki and add all of the hours that is needed to breakeven up. Then divide it by 24 because there is 24 hrs in a day. Then you will find out how many days it will take to break even. The webpage says altogether it'd take 1270hrs to break even after you get it to Rank A. Divide that by 24 and you'll get about 53. So I'm guessing it'd take 53 days to break even after all your hard work. Here is the information i found on the website which happens to be on this wiki. http://www.vindictuswiki.com/wiki/Meditation

Or, since you only get 1.whatever/hr anyway, and most or all skills are rounded to 10, just use the multiples of 10 on your other skills and the excess on Meditation. Or you can wait days upon days to collect enough bonus AP to be of any use.
 * That would only work if you could level multiple skills at once. --Veltan 01:55, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

You're Forgetting Base Meditation Rates
Most of what you guys are saying is true, theoretically. From ranking meditation from F to A, a cost of 1430 AP, your costs will be recovered by the difference in regeneration, which (as has been discussed many times) is 3.6 AP per day, or 1430/3.6 days (396.222 days to be exact). This math is fairly straight forward.

However, the formula for time to break even (both included on the main Wiki page, and in these discussions) is flawed, because you are failing to account for the natural Int regen time. The lower the initial meditation time is, the more effective the meditation skill would be. For example, hypothetically, if your int is so high that your character meditates 1 AP per 10 minutes at rank F, the effect of ranking meditation to A would be astronomical; you would be increasing your AP meditation rate by a factor of four, and thus, in this case, decreasing the break-even point to 1430/(576-144), or 3.3 days.

I believe the following formula more accurately represents the break even time:

BET = (AP Spent (bMedRank - aMedRank)) / ((1440*/(60 - bMedRank) - (Int/7)/60)**) - 1440*/((60 - aMedRank) - (Int/7)/60)**)

BET: Break Even Time, in Days

aMedRank***: The starting Meditation Rank you are comparing

bMedRank***: The ending Meditation Rank you are comparing

Int: Your character's int stat

*1440 represents the number of minutes in a day

** Int/7, as we know, is the meditation time reduction in seconds, is further divided by 60, to convert from seconds to minutes

*** In the numerator, it refers to total AP cost for gaining this rank; in the denominator, it represents the time [in minutes] of reduction of this given rank

In layman's terms: Break Even Time in days = (Cost difference between higher and lower rank) / (Overall daily AP Gain from higher rank - Overall daily AP Gain from lower rank)

Let's take a more realistic example: let's say you're an Evie with 1050 int.

Your meditation time at rank F is:

(58.5 - (1050/7)/60), or 56 minutes. This means you gain 25.7 AP per day at rank F (1440/56).

At rank A, your meditation time would be:

(51 - (1050/7)/60), or 48.5 minutes. This means you gain 29.7 AP per day at rank A (1440/48.5).

As we know, the total cost of rank A meditation is 1430 AP, and the cost of rank F is 0 AP.

The break even time for this character would be (1430 - 0)/(29.7 - 25.7), or roughly 357.5 days, which is over 38 days better than the theoretical value!

--Shinobi 18:06, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

THE MOST USELESS SKILL IN THE GAME
It is obvious it required at least roughly 1 year to "compensate" the AP you spend even when your char has extreme int.

Suppose the game would last at least 5 years.

The skill provide you extra 4 AP per day in best situation.

Whether you loved the game a lot and has all 4 chars over LV 60 or just a casual player have only 1 char over LV 60.

3~4AP/day = 24~28AP/week, because not every one use Evie and have such high int, 25AP/week should be a more reasonable number.

In end game (when you need lots of AP) it equal to beat less one daily quest a week at best. (let suppose it need 5min)

That is, even after waste 1 year to maximize the skill, it could only save about 50sec to 1 min a day to get the same AP in rank F.

CONCLUSION:

A rank of meditation could practically shortens about 8-10sec a day to get the same AP.

At rank A, it shortens 50sec-1 min a day after FIRST YEAR.

HOW "MARVELOUS" IT IS.....

why is it so hard to see its good??
so without any intelligence you would get 28.2 ap a day. since you need 1430 to break even it would take (1430/28.2)= 50 days and 17 hours to break even. So it doesnt take a year to pay itself off. personally i like this. i play casually an i have everything maxed out because of this skill


 * No one said Meditation was bad, and in fact the free part is GREAT. However, RANKING meditation is only worth it in the long haul, which is what the above discussion is about. Don't forget you get 24.6 AP/day without spending any AP on meditation which means you only gaining 3.6 AP/Day from that 1420 AP investment. That means in those 50 days that you got the 1420 AP you spent back from meditation someone else who also started with 1420 AP but did not rank Meditation had 2650 AP (24.6*50+1420) for their other skills. Meaning you are actually still short 1230 AP and had not yet broken even.  -- Sigil Baram talk 22:08, 14 February 2012 (UTC)